Toot or Boot: HR Edition

The Trouble with SHRM

• Stacey Nordwall • Season 1 • Episode 26

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On this week's episode, we're doing something a little different. I invited Morgan Williams, Tracie Sponenberg, and Sarika Lamont to go in-depth on one topic - SHRM.

SHRM has been the talk of HR news a lot over the past year - they dropped the E from DEI, are facing a lawsuit from a former employee who is alleging discrimination and retaliation, and most recently the CEO was added to a shortlist to serve as Secretary of Labor.

So we dive deep on SHRM - who they are, how they've changed, who they serve, and why it all matters.

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Connect with Sarika Lamont on LinkedIn

Connect with Tracie Sponenberg on LinkedIn or visit her website to sign up for her newsletter. Click on "resources" on her website for the SHRM-alternative list!

Connect with Morgan Williams on LinkedIn and check out PeakHR for learning programs designed by HR practitioners for HR practitioners.

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 Stacey: All right. Welcome to Toot or Boot, where each week we talk about news related to HR and the world of work. Each week I'm joined by guests and we toot the news we like and we boot the news we don't like. I'm your host, Stacey Nordwall, a serial joiner of early stage tech companies as their first in or only HR person.

And joining us today, we have Sarika, Tracie, and Morgan. Sarika, tell us a little bit about yourself. 

Sarika: Hello. First, Stacey, thank you for having me. I've like finally arrived. I'm on a Toot or Boot episode. I'm very excited, like with my rebels here. So it's a perfect, inaugural session for me. I am Sarika Lamont.

I am the vice president of people at Vidyard. Vidyard is a tech company based out of Canada. We, believe in the power of video, especially leveraging that in go to market motions to really help, B2B sales and marketing. And so that's where the power of video really sits and where Vidyard is, it's where the magic comes into play.

I've been there for about two years and I run all things people, culture, the alignment between our business strategy and our people strategy. And I'm very excited to be here.

Tracie: Hi, I'm Tracie Sponenberg, and I am also super excited to be here. I can't believe I'm finally get to be on Toot or Boot, but I've been watching it and watching friends be on it, and just like, When do I get to do it?

And so I'm here and this is a great topic. I'm excited to dive into this. I'm Tracie Sponenberg. I'm a former Chief People Officer with 30 years of experience in the world of HR and turned fractional executive slash advisor to the distribution industry slash keynote speaker slash Tech advisor slash brand partner slash facilitator.

So this is my year. I launched my business in January. I am doing everything and learning what I like and what I don't like and what I'm good at and what I'm less good at. I love that. 

Morgan: And I will wrap us up in our intros. My name is Morgan Williams. I am the CEO of Peak HR, which offers a cohort style learning as well as fractional HR.

Stacey: All right. Awesome. Thank you so much for joining. Today is going to be a little bit different from our normal format, because I invited you all to go in depth really on one topic, and that is to discuss SHRM. And that's because they have really been the talk of HR news a lot over the past year.

And I found on LinkedIn that there seemed to be a good number of folks who hadn't really been following that news previously and were surprised by what has happened over the past year, or didn't even really understand why it was important. So I really wanted to dive into that specifically. 

We've all had different experiences of SHRM and with SHRM throughout our careers. So I wanted us to start off by sharing briefly about that so that we can highlight the perspectives each of us are bringing. 

For me, I've worked the majority of my HR career within tech. And so when I started off, I asked people, “Hey, is it worth getting certified?” And they were like, eh, you know, don't worry about that. You don't need to get certified. You know, it's old school. It's, you know, not worth it, maybe access the resources, but don't worry about it. So it really wasn't something that I was very involved with. And wasn't really in my awareness.

Sarika, I know your experience is somewhat similar to that. 

Sarika: Yeah. So I think the differing entering point for me into the world of people in HR is probably why I don't identify or affiliate with SHRM. I have not always been in this HR people space. I started my career in sales and marketing for a cigarette company, Philip Morris.

That's where I started right out of college. And then I eventually, because I live in the DC area or just outside of DC and Virginia. So the government is closed. Management consulting, government contracting is very big. I was more in program management. And I would happen to be part of a company that was growing, really well and really rapidly.

And so I eventually got to do a lot of different things across the business. Eventually, I found my way to HR because I saw a gap and a need in our organization on the strategic talent development side and talent management. So I started to really dig as a consultant does okay, I want to solve this problem or this gap.

I started to research and really started to understand this world of integrated talent management and brought that to our organization. Now we did have an HR function at that organization, but it was more traditional, you know, old school HR, like very compliance, much more reactive, more transactional.

It didn't really focus as much on what I believe to be strategic HR, like people, culture, engagement, retention, talent development, et cetera. And so I, I would always see our HR teams going to these SHRM events. But it just never really was exciting to me when I started to look into it, as I started to fall into the world of, you know, integrated talent management for that company, it, I didn't resonate with the work.

They didn't talk about the things that I was really interested in and the things that I was doing at the time and where I really was excited and passionate about. And so, that's where I started to research other avenues to learn in the space that I was in. At the time, honestly, ATD association for talent development was really the only thing that I saw now it's totally different.

I mean, there's so many other avenues to grow, like Peak HR, Safe Space, et cetera. We can get to that later. But for me, I don't have any affiliation. I don't think it represents how I operate in the people culture, HR space and who I am and how I want to build. Culture and enable people to drive business outcomes.

Stacey: And Tracie, I know your experience has been different because you have been more involved with SHRM throughout your career. Can you tell us kind of what your journey has been?

Tracie: Sure. So, and it's interesting because I sit in this world, part of my world is distribution and a still very traditional HR foundation, in a lot of companies. And then part of my world is working with brands and having friends who are, you know, what's SHRM, right? And so it's been an evolution for sure, but I started my career in the mid for a fortune 50 company.

And I didn't do anything with SHRM while I was there because all of their training, all of their development, was in house. It was a massive global company. And then I decided to become a department of one at a company, a newspaper and publishing company. And, I was scared to death and I was, you know, I think 26 at the time and was leading HR as well as being a department of one.

There were like 200 people. And the person training me who I was replacing was like, you have to join SHRM, like what's SHRM. And so I did, that was literally the first thing I did when I started and I couldn't believe the resources and the information and all that was there because it was extremely helpful to me building that foundation and over time, a couple of years later.

I got involved with the, local SHRM and several years after that, I actually ran a local SHRM chapter and I kept that up for years and years and years. And as I was going forward, I just kept getting deeper and deeper and learning more about myself and learning more. I have taught the SHRM certification course.

I got my certification in, I think, 2010, got my HRCI, which was part of SHRM then, and then my SHRM. I was a blogger and influencer at, the 2019 SHRM annual conference, I was going to speak at the 2020 annual conference. 

I responded to media inquiries. I wrote things for them. I was really fully all in. It was 2020 when I went, you know what, this is no longer for me. And we'll get into all of the whys, but I wanted to give you that background to go. You know, this was my background. I was fully in, and I still have friends who are in not as many as I used to, not because I have less friends, but because many of them have moved away.

Stacey: Thank you for that. And Morgan, I know you're kind of a little bit in the in between. Can you tell us about your experience with SHRM? 

Morgan: Yeah, I started in talent acquisition. Trying to transition into there, that can be difficult. With that being said, a lot of times you have to have some type of HR experience to even join SHRM in the first place.

Working in TA gave me that. And for me, at the beginning I found it very useful, more so for the templates. I've never been a part of any chapters. I've never spoken for SHRM. I've never gone to any of the conferences. For me, that just wasn't my style, my vibe. But what I will say is mentoring a lot of HR people when they needed help right away, or a quick template, or just something to get them started to think about it, I did, I found that very useful, especially with a lot of resources not being collected.

Like now we have so many different places that just truly did not exist. When I was kicking off in HR, I think the other thing too, is there was just such as large, kind of like how Tracie was talking about, but it was a repertoire. Like you, you go in there, you can see toolkits, you can see, you know, all of these different things to start from, would I ever just use something start to finish from there, no, absolutely not. 

What I would always tell people is look at this adapted to your culture. Change the things you want, making sure it's legal, but it can give you a start. I would say the other thing that I also used it for is they have some email alerts and reminders. And I would add oftentimes like my CEOs or people of my business departments on some of those upcoming legislation, things that may change or pending things.

So it can kind of keep them in the loop without me having to say everything all of the time, but it was a way for them to kind of get a brief newsletter on either global trends or things that were directly related to them. 

Sarika: It's a valid point that you both brought up, though, is that at the time when you think about pre 2020, There weren't other places, people weren't really sharing in this way that they are now, which I felt like didn't really start to take shape.

Right. Really until COVID when, right, like people were really just online and trying to build community online. And people found that part of the way they built community was like connecting and sharing and helping one another in a time that was so difficult because trying to figure out the HR during COVID.

That was like brand new for everybody. So I felt like that was where the shift started to happen. So to be fair, even in the HR, the HR that I had prior to when I even joined, that's all they really had to go off of. And they set the tone for how HR was going to be done. And so if it was more transactional or compliance heavy, that's because that's the way that SHRM defined it and led it for me, it felt like it led people down that path.

And if that was going to be the place that they were going to provide resources and advocacy and training and professional development. Like how do you expect for people to do or know anything different? Like they sort of like, they were like the monopoly of HR in that time, right? So, I think it's worth mentioning that because I know there's a lot of even I do this and right?

Well, I'm not that HR, right? But I also have to recognize like, it was a different time than what it is now. And I think a lot of people are evolving because there's so much more access. 

Tracie: It was an opportunity for them to go one way and, and to change and to take a stand and to and they didn't.

And I think that's when I tapped out and that's when a lot of, you'll find a video of me in 2020 speaking for SHRM doing a this is what COVID's and this is how it personally affected me. And, and that was the last thing I did because, it just, there was a real turning point. 

Sarika: So, Tracie, I know your story, so I'm excited for you to share that with the wider group because I think your point, I think a lot of people are going to learn a lot from all of our experiences, but I think you have a particularly interesting and unique experience that you were so involved in so many ways and really believed in it, and then here you are on the other side of it.

And you, like, how did you, why, what was that trigger and how and why did you make that transition? And I think that's important to share with the community. And I think people are going to learn a lot from just that experience. Yeah. 

Stacey: So I want to, I'm assuming that anyone who's listening to this probably knows who SHRM is, what SHRM is, but it's important to take a little step back.

So, SHRM is the Society for Human Resource Management, they're about 75 years old, one of the largest professional HR orgs in the world. As we've mentioned, they provide training resources. They have local chapters, they run major conferences, and they really did in this way that we've talked about kind of have a monopoly for a while in terms of, or maybe along with like HRCI and, and some other bigger orgs, but there weren't a lot of places for HR people to go.

And there weren't as many communities, there wasn't, wasn't as much sharing. So SHRM really, had a big presence. And, why we're talking about it and why it's relevant, is the HR certifications.

It really, because of that, that presence, HR certifications, there are plenty of jobs that they, you must have, you must be certified in order to get. So this is, part of why SHRM has been so important or remains so important. And also the other part is that, SHRM is a huge entity that lobbies government and provides their perspective on proposed regulations.

So, keep those things in mind as we talk about SHRM. This is gonna be a little bit long. I'm gonna try to get through it as quickly as possible, but I'm gonna talk about just some of the bullet points over the last 10 years. 

Yeah, buckle up, there's a lot.

I want to do this primarily because as Tracie has alluded to,  there were some turning points for her. I think for some folks over the last year, they're kind of just now seeing some of this and thinking like, “So what, they did this one thing?” and it's really a much longer story. So kind of want to dive into that. 

Well, I'm going to take it back to 2014. That's when SHRM split from HR, HRCI. And that was a pretty big hubbub at the time because it was this thing of why, why are they splitting? Is this really for our benefit or is this, you know, Is this about money? Is what is this really about?

We can fast forward through 2018. We see President Trump appointed the CEO of SHRM, Johnny Taylor, as chairman of the President's Board of Advisors for HBCUs. We'll see that, you know, he has an affiliation with the Trump administration in a way that he doesn't, didn't have with Obama, doesn't have with Biden, and even seem to be pretty critical of the Obama administration.

In 2019, SHRM partners with the Charles Koch Institute on a campaign to encourage the hiring of formerly incarcerated people, which is a great goal, but it caused controversy because the Koch brothers have very clear ties to conservative agendas. 

We get into 2020, there were cases in front of the US Supreme Court regarding whether employment discrimination on the basis of an employee's sexual orientation or gender identity was legal or not. And SHRM was silent. They didn't file an amicus brief. They didn't make a statement about it until after the ruling was released. 

After the murder of George Floyd, SHRM statements avoided addressing the role of racial injustice in his death. And after being petitioned to address that, they released another statement that people found still to be quite neutral and didn't address systemic racism, didn't, you know, advocate for structural change within the workplace.

2021 and 2022, SHRM chooses former Fox and Friends cohost Gretchen Carlson as a keynote, then they choose former president George W. Bush to keynote their conference. In 2022, SHRM settled a class action lawsuit after deaf HR professionals sued alleging that their programs were not accessible. 2024! It's been a big year for SHRM, over the summer, they received a lot of backlash because they declared that they were removing the E from D, E, and I. They were going to focus on civility and inclusion. 

More recently they were in the news, as a former employee reported racial discrimination, which led to her subsequent retaliation and then termination. And again, this is an HR organization. So, then we have after the election, SHRM put a very, nice letter forward to Trump, a very long and thorough letter congratulating President Trump on his win.

And then just recently, that was followed by the announcement that Trump has put Johnny Taylor, the CEO of SHRM, on the shortlist for Labor Secretary. 

What did I miss? 

Tracie: Pretty thorough. That's a, that's a lot.

Sarika: I would say COVID too. I'm just tired listening to that. And I know there's even more tucked in there that we didn't touch on.

Tracie: But here's one thing I think that that SHRM's office itself, if anybody can corroborate this, I've heard this from multiple people is, was fully in person, like June of 2020. And, and so they're now that's what I've heard. Can't confirm, but you think that an organization, and let's take HRCI, for example, another credentialing body, I believe they're fully remote, if not, they're really close, right?

An organization that represents HR professionals around the world is, I guess it's a professional services organization, right? But they are not modeling a kind of organization that we're seeing, well, I guess we're seeing more and more now, but you know what I mean? They're, that's one of the things that really, really bothers me. 

So the people working there probably have a pretty crappy employee experience. And if you're working there and you have that crappy employee experience, that's going to translate out. Like are people there really passionate about what they do so that others who are members of SHRM can be really passionate about what they do, that always just bothers me.

Morgan: One thing I wanted to say was the COVID. I mean, I know for me at that time, I was in a new organization and looking on there, they had no guidance, none.

Tracie: They did, They gatekeeped it. They put it behind a paywall. 

Sarika: Oh, right. So that's how they got you. It's almost like this is, you know, Profit over people. Profit over people. Let's not, let's not do the right thing in a time where everybody's floundering, trying to figure out what we're supposed to do in this, crazy historic moment that's never happened, at least in our lifetime. All these HR folks are screaming all of a sudden, this is our responsibility in HR to figure out and all of a sudden be doctors and tell people what to do with their, to be home or how to protect themselves vaccine or not vaccine when that, but let's put this behind a paywall instead of helping and enabling the people that are trying to support people in organizations, isn't that what you're supposed to stand for?

And then. You know, all Johnny Taylor's talks of this is about policies, not politics. And then really? This isn't about politics at all for you? I'm sorry, but a black man in 2024, that is going to be your stance? That you're going to take equity out of DE&I and we're going to focus on civility?

I, there's so many emotions that I have raging inside of me. So, so the announcement that came out last night [about SHRM CEO Johnny Taylor being on the shortlist for Labor Secretary in the Trump Administration] and Morgan texted it to a group of us, “Did y'all see this?” And it was like, Of course, 0% surprise. Like this should not, for anyone that is dialed in and paying attention to what is going on, this is not surprising.

This is literally all about his self gain and what he stands to gain from his role. And he's using his, it's abuse of power. I mean, there's so many things wrong. I could go. So there's so many ways to go, but it is infuriating. It is scary. It is dangerous. It makes me sick. It makes me lose sleep at night.

I cannot believe that this is where we are in 2024 on so many levels. I just keep remembering something I read about him about policies over politics. This is not about policies. This is purely about politics, and this is about profit over people and personal power and personal gain.

That is what this is all, this is not about doing the right thing for the HR industry as a whole. And for the people that are administering HR, people, culture, whatever you want to call it in your organization, that's not what this is about. People need to wake up. It's clear as day.

Tracie: Oh, you just brought up one of the biggest controversies and should be on Stacey's list, so sorry, I interrupted. 

Morgan: Well, now I like low key want to hear that.

Tracie: So they did have the resources, and, but they were behind a paywall. And that was, you know, with their, lack of response to the Supreme Court and overall LGBTQ plus issues and George Floyd's murder, there was, it was like, boom, boom, I guess maybe COVID was the first boom.

We're going to put this all behind a paywall when nobody knew what was going on and everybody's looking to the largest HR organization in the world. So that was a big thing in 2020. So those three things had me, I'm out. Those were the three things, but yeah, they had it. They just weren't going to share it with you.

Stacey: Yeah. I think that's, I mean, that's kind of what I want to talk about. And I know  Morgan I want to make sure to get you in here as well. Is that kind of what it sounds like that was really the moment for many folks that caused you to look at SHRM with the side eye, look at them a bit differently if you hadn't already been.

Morgan, is that, was that the moment for you or what can you say about that? 

Morgan: Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. I think it was a time you see everybody scrambling. I think that moment changed the whole HR sphere. I think everybody kept like locking key of what they were doing. This is a moment because we did not have anybody to really look to, we looked to each other. 

And we started sharing in ways that I honestly have never experienced before and like we see it continuously happening in such a positive way, which is why I think we have better cultures now. But no 100 percent that was that was the way because I'm sitting up here, I mean, even for me, I've talked about this before, but I was trying to think how am I going to build my COVID policy? What does this mean? We have laws changing every two seconds. We have county laws. We have all of these things and I'm operating in multiple countries. So like, how are we functioning? What are we doing? And I kept going [to SHRM] to look to see is there anything here? Just a template that I can take.

Obviously our culture is vastly different. So I knew once again, I was going to have to modify it, but there really was nothing. And that was the point where I started looking at colleges and things that were federally funded. Like I knew that they had to have a plan and put it out because administrations that I trusted or whatever the case may be weren't doing that. 

I think also as a Black woman, knowing that a Black man was running that organization during George Floyd, it was devastating to, to not be able to say that, to me, this was the moment we actually could say things. Like, I can't say that ever personally felt safe to kind of talk about, you know, systemic racism.

But I felt like this was an opening that, you had to walk through that door. And I know for a lot of people of color, practitioners, whatever the case may be, it was very hard to have that conversation. You're dealing with your own feelings and emotions. And so I think it would have been really great to have an organization kind of speak, because I think that's always the thing that falls on, you know, oppressed populations is trying to educate people about that.

And this was an area that they could have really gone in strong and taken a lot of the emotional weight off of us as practitioners that are both, dealing with all of this emotion in ourselves, as well as we have empathy for the employees. We're trying to figure things out, but we're in an emotional state, you know, as well.

And to be no guidance, to not talk about it, to blur the lines is really crazy. And I think the thing, even for me as somebody who is not nearly involved with SHRM, Johnny is the only CEO that I know. I've never known any, his pictures everywhere for the organization in a way that is you don't see that with companies.

And that's why, to me, I see this as very much so self promoting because why do I know you? I mean, I'm a part of several memberships, but the way that he is on everything is so odd to me. And I think that's also where I started to see more of the, the self-serving, you know, things and aspects that, that were happening when it benefits you, you do this.

But I think, I wasn't thinking of that organization in that way. And I was thinking of it for the greater good, knowledge, resources, templates, toolkits…to be just like nothing that, you know, for me, cause obviously I guess it was behind a paywall, but that was the sentiment I was constantly hearing, you know, from other practitioners.

And that's what it was like, okay, I'm just going to have to do this myself. What does this look like? Let me go ahead and dig deep into the trenches. But that was the whole purpose. A lot of people were paying for SHRM was to kind of help them through those moments only to sit there with really nothing.

Sarika: I mean, there's two things on that. The first thing is. The word devastation, like the devastation that you felt as a Black woman in that moment with George Floyd and having this Black man be the face and responsible for this organization that should have been there to walk through that and guide us and set the tone.

For so many other companies, for us, and he didn't do that. It, it, yeah, there's no other word but devastation. You have this powerful platform. You are a person of color. You are a Black man. You're, you know what your people and our, your ancestors and other people of color are going through and, and people are hurting. And you did nothing to extend your hand and to help and support the people around you. It is, it is inconsiderable to me. I don't understand it. 

Of course, it makes fast forward four years. It makes a lot more sense now. But the other piece of that is okay. In all of the devastation and how awful it is even think about black man or person of color, anybody really to not take that opportunity.

On the flip of it, the other thing that you really bring to the surface is this power of community. Because prior to that, there weren't other places to really get resources. People were not sharing in the open. People were not talking about what was and wasn't working in their organizations and how do you do this and how do you connect and because you're also used to being in person and so you just are kind of in your own world and in your own bubble and that's the way that we operated.

And so COVID, for all the terrible things that happened, there's also a bright side to it that I like to like to be somewhat optimistic is the power of community. Now to be fair I wasn't running HR at the time that COVID happened but I was a part of an executive team where we were all supporting our HR team and our HR leader and trying to understand and figure out together collectively what were we going to do? What are we not going to do? How are we going to speak on George Floyd? How are we going to manage COVID? Right? So we were all sort of in it together and supporting. We didn't leave HR in a lurch on its own. But again, didn't have a lot of resources to go to.

But then you think about…Eventually I left that organization during, you know, the shutdown and went and ran the whole function like at a tech company that was in seven countries, not even based in DC anymore. The power of community that came at the other side of that and then being able to have so much access and then people speaking up online and be much more vocal on a place like LinkedIn that I had ever seen before on LinkedIn.

And then it's okay, wow, like I can start reaching to people like. Inevitably, that is how I ended up finding my next job is a woman that was in HR that didn't have an HR background that was a product person at an HR tech company that then became a CPO. And then she helped take that company public.

She was so successful. And I was like, Oh my God, like you're speaking to me because no one was going to know nobody in HR at the time for me was really giving me that respect and space. Cause I didn't have an HR background. So that was sort of how I found my way. And that was the start of building community.

But again, it didn't happen until the other side of. COVID, like when COVID was sort of in full steam ahead. But now to your point, like we wouldn't, none of us would have met each other had it not been for…In some cases, if you look at it, like there's SHRM and their inability to like do the right thing and prioritize, I believe profit over people led us to each other.

These communities and the power of community now, I don't know, I don't know where I would be or how I would be or where my headspace would be like, if I didn't have the power of community and the power of sharing and I think Peak HR has sort of come from the ashes of that, like the power of community and cohort learning and connecting people remotely and, you know, Hebba Youssef is obviously a very great friend of ours and she built, you know, she started the I Hate it Here newsletter, that's how I inevitably got connected to her and knew she saw her on LinkedIn and her newsletter and was like, “Oh my God, you're in DC area. So am I like, let's meet.” And then Safe Space for her, that community and the power of sharing comes from that. And then it's just sort of like all these other communities.

So I at least try to look at. Some positive has come from that experience. And that is, I don't want to give credit to SHRM, but you can look at, you know, what does come from shitty situations.

Tracie: Yeah, I want to add one thing to that. So, you're right, Sarika, 100 percent right on community. I I ran COVID response for a 50 location in person essential business during COVID. And it was, you know, what kind of, why I made the decision eventually to go out on my own, because I just there's, there's got to be more to that.

But what happened was we had an in person group of people who thought about people, which is unusual in New Hampshire. I, I'm going, we talked about offending people off camera. I'm going to offend some people with that, unusual to think people first to lead the way, you know, lead human centered, right?

So we kind of all got together. There were maybe like 10 of us and we'd go to lunch regularly and have these topics that we talk about and then COVID and we're like, we need to help each other out. So we got together and had this, you know, zoom and then George Floyd is murdered.

And we looked around and it was all white women, all white women. So we're like, this isn't right. And so we opened it up, online and just said, we're going to, we're going to talk about the tough things. For as long as we can, and the group's still going, and there's over a thousand people who dip in and out.

And, so the power of community is real, and you find each other in the times when you need each other. That's one thing, and I just wanted to acknowledge something, and I forgot about this until recently, but it's super important. So this is a precursor to what's happening with SHRM now. Many years ago, maybe ten years ago.

There was a guy, Victorio Milian, if I'm pronouncing his name correctly, started the hashtag, #FixItSHRM. And there have been things off and on for years, right? Probably starting around when Johnny C. Taylor came in and you know, the first time I heard it, I was at a SHRM event with Kate Bischoff.

I'm like, Oh, are you speaking in 2019? And she's No, I'm a fix it SHRMer. I'm like, What's that? And so I'd encourage people, especially if you're listening, because you want to know more, search that if you still have Twitter X or whatever it's called now, search that and you'll find that, you know, going back for years and years and years, some of the chatter along, you know, things that SHRM has done to really not support people or people centered workplaces. 

Stacey: And that's a good segue because I'm thinking, you know, over the last year or so on LinkedIn, I would see some response, you know, from folks that was kind of like, okay, well, you know, SHRM's outdated. So, you know, what's the big deal. Okay. SHRM, you know, removed the E I don't think that's so great, but you know, it's still kind of in that phase of not I think really either understanding what the larger impact of SHRM is or, or kind of maybe not having been connected to other communities and knowing where to go. 

So I want to talk for a minute about like, why is SHRM such a big deal? I mean, why are we even talking about SHRM right now? Morgan, Can you start us off?

Morgan: You sure? I think, look, you know, I think a lot of people already know my opinions, but I've been really raising the alarm about some stuff a lot this year because it's been continuously concerning for me, starting with, you know, the, the E in equity, seeing the positions that Johnny has taken, something I had even shared with Stacey, but even when you go look back at the letter when Biden won, of what he wrote, and then this letter that he wrote to Trump, they are vastly different.

Trump is honorable. Biden is not. It's signed by all the chapters on this one. The last one literally is two small paragraphs. And one of those is everything about SHRM. So really just one little paragraph about congratulating Biden. This other one is a whole letter. And I think for me, I was raising the flag very quickly that this is 100 percent politics and it's funny because everything he says, you know, policy is not politics and all of this civility.

Once again, speaking as a minority, specifically a Black woman to talk about civility and work and you're removing the equity, but you want me to be civil when my rights are being removed and it's not an equitable experience, like how? Are they being civil to me? I'm trying to understand that, and I think having a Black man write that was very frustrating.

I'll be honest if somebody else had wrote it, maybe I could have understood if they don't understand our experience. Our lived experience is drastically different. I understand that there is a learning curve to understand some of the systemic things that happen. But knowing he was a part of this organization and the face and willing to say these things out loud was, like, Honestly, it feels like you're being gaslit because it's this is definitely about politics.

It a hundred percent is. And also now seeing him being on the shortlist for Department of Labor, a man that wanted to remove equity, a man that wasn't for any of the trans rights or didn't have anything to say, a man that is talking about being civil. Within the workplace while we have so much going on, and just thinking about a lot of their things that are going on, that's not even mentioning the lawsuit that they're facing right now for not even doing a correct termination.

These are the people that are supposed to be teaching other people. Now, to be fair, I know most organizations will be sued at some point because it's an organization. But at the same time, the way and the manner that they were suited for it to have been this public at this point is very interesting.

This could have been quiet, this could have been settled, it could have been done. So something here is awry that somebody felt enough to take public in a way that they felt it was going to be received. And so that's just something to talk about. And I think knowing that this is going to be a person that is going to have even more power, potentially, if they do get into there, what happens with this organization that has been so self serving to him and his agenda?

Will this just be the corporate bureaucracy kind of falling down from the White House into corporations because the last few years they have not supported HR employees. They have actually not supported us in legislation and lobbying. They have actively gone against us multiple times if you just go back and look at the records.

That is very worrisome for me of this person operating in the Department of Labor. This is a place where, as an employee, you file claims, and this is the person that's going to be reading it that's basically saying you don't deserve equity. It's just an acronym. You'll be okay.

This is a person that is, once again, promoting all of that civility. And so, if he does have that power and that reach, I think we should all be horrified about what really can happen and what's going to happen all over, not even just with the Department of Labor, but who are his appointees, you know, what, what is he going to do, or how is he going to collaborate with the NLRB, you know, which conservatives typically don't. 

So, we have a lot of union activities the last few years. There's going to be an impact in that, if he is over the Department of Labor and has influence. Thinking about the EEOC, another place employees can raise claims. This will drastically change our work and our landscape, and potentially what is legal and when you can bring a claim.

And so, I think we should all be worried, especially after this person has been in our face, reiterating over and over again, this isn't about me, I don't care who wins, the same note is going, everything else. I have not seen a fact that substantiates anything that he has been saying. Everything is so counter, and if you look at it, it seems like a complete portfolio.

And no, I do not believe that he was shocked at all. All of his agenda, back from years ago, has been lining up to this exact moment, if you really pay attention and look at it. 

Sarika: Exactly. And 100%. The reason why we're even taught SHRM is even like why SHRM instead of HRCI or any of these. Well, SHRM is the largest global HR, you know, association in the world that also is responsible for advocacy, right?

They're supposed to be representing the HR profession in legislative and regulatory matters. And they're supposed to be advocating for policies that benefit workplaces and that benefit the employee. That is not what has been happening because of his self serving ways. I'll just plus 100 for everything that Morgan just said, to have that man, knowing that he's been sitting on the top of SHRM and then have that man sit at the top of Department of Labor, it's, it's crazy. It's dangerous. It is horrifying. 

I mean, that's why we're talking about this because it has the potential for a lot of detrimental impacts in our workplaces for employees, particularly minority employees, their protections, their benefits, how we operate, I and, I mean, all the different appointees that, you know, Trump has been announcing, there, there's just, to me, I'm not trying to catastrophize, I talk about this with my therapist, I talk about this with my executive coach this week, I'm trying not to catastrophize and really compartmentalize this, but all these people that he's bringing in, including Johnny Taylor, have the ability and will set back this country decades of progress that has been made.

And that is just horrifying as, and I will say this outside of me being in HR or like a woman in work, a working woman, like I'm horrified for my children and their futures. That is actually what drives my anxiety around everything that's going around is like, what does this mean for my children? And then I got to, it's a lot bigger than just work.

Stacey: And I think that's, that is why I brought you all together to have this conversation because when I, I think that I've been following more and more and the light bulb moment for me was truly, this is an organization that's meant to be in service of and supporting HR practitioners and helping, you know, the workplace and employees.

And it really feels like they're representing themselves and they're representing employers. And when that happens, that's generally not to the benefit of the workers. Yeah, that's that's why I wanted to have this conversation. So, one of the questions for folks and I know Tracie put together a really great resource about this was okay, So if not SHRM, who where? 

So Tracie, can you kick us off and talk a little bit about that? What are the alternatives for people? 

Tracie: Yeah, and so, self serving or not, there's nothing to buy, but you can go to my website, which is https://traciesponenberg.com/ and go to the resources section, you'll see the tab right at the top, which has probably 100 plus different communities events.

And the only it was a. I've always created things that I can't find, and I couldn't find what I was looking for aside from PYN's excellent list on HR conferences, so I created it and then turned it out into the general HR community and they added to it, so there are alternatives like Peak HR, which is a wonderful community, and Sarika mentioned Safe Space, and there are conferences upon conferences upon events. There's one in New Hampshire called Strategic HR that I think nobody knows about that. Stacy, you know about that. But, through the nimble group that is just doing really interesting things. 

And I think the important thing to note here is that there are a lot of people who don't know I know there are a lot of people also who don't practice HR in the way that we do here, because they don't know that there's a different way. I used to be one of those people, but they just don't know. So when I approach or when I post and a lot of those people aren't even on LinkedIn at all.

And so when I post about that, I'm like, here's the facts you make up your own mind. And I have never seen more messages to me, more comments, more reaction than I have this year. So between dropping the E and the lawsuit, which, you know, Morgan, you said a lot of companies don't, or a lot of companies will experience that.

The details of this were not like most companies I sure hope would experience. And so, those are just a few, communities and organizations, I think and, and I'd love to hear beyond that, what Sarika and Morgan have. 

Sarika: Yeah. I mean, to your point, there, there are obviously a lot of other Startup groups, communities, organizations, Startup Experts is another one, that I think they do.

And they've grown to be, I don't know, I think well over a thousand there. And it's not just for folks that are in startup companies, by the way, like it's all different sizes tapes there. They have a really great presence in the space. They have a lot of different practitioners and leaders from all different companies, all different industries.

They always have a really great presence at, HR transform, which is conference that happens every, I think, March in Vegas. So they always have a really great turnout and bring really great community together. They have a Slack group that has a bunch of different channels for all different types of things that you want to learn about or you need feedback on.

They have different groups that they bring people together for coaching and mentoring, which I've always felt was super, super helpful. So that's another one that I know has done well. I know we've, our own selves have started something called the Rowdy HR Rebels, which is really just about building community and how did we find each other and how can you go build your own communities?

And so, you know, and we've done an event in Austin, we've talked about doing other events to bring just people together as just a way and even in not, we're trying to focus on not major cities, other cities where maybe folks don't have as much of a presence or people don't, you know, people tend to go to the major ones, right?

I know you think you've even talked about this, Stacey, I think in, you know, where you are in Arizona, there isn't a big community right? A lot of people come there for bringing HR people together. And so we've talked about trying to find, those elements. You already talked about safe space, with Hebba. Morgan can talk about PEAK in obviously much more detail, but that's an amazing way to learn.

But, I'll, and Morgan, you probably have others to share as well. 

Morgan: Yeah. I mean, I would say Resources for Humans, I'm an ambassador, People Geeks, Hacking HR. Yeah, I was, I was surprised you didn't say that when I was waiting. 

Sarika: Actually, I was like, there's one more in my head and I teach for hacking HR.I know Enrique, I actually teach for his certifications that he's, that's another one. He's building certification programs, by the way, that are much cheaper and much more foreign leaning and progressive and really people first, in the space of HR.

So there's more than one way to get certifications. And I think he's really building a great presence and I get to teach and it's really fun. Sorry, Morgan. Thank you for calling me out on that. 

Morgan: No, no, no. I, it's just, it's fun. You know, we're all a part of these things in, in, in different ways. And I think that question, we get it a lot.

And so you have to think about it, you know, for a bit, I would say, spend some time. There's so many different communities. I mean, in HR, there's a ton. Also if you're in fractional, like fractional people people, you know, that's some place to share resources, get tips or whatever. That's a little bit different than traditional in house HR.

But I would say more than anything, it's just like anything that you're going to be spending a lot of time or invest in. Research, research, look, find your people. Don't just join a group. If it's not for you, you don't have to like at this point, there's so many different places that specialize in different content that specialize in different, areas of HR that can, you know, you can just be with L and D folks.

You can just be, you know, with TA folks or whatever the case may be. And so that's the stuff that I love. 

Stacey: And I would add, I think Troop HR was not mentioned, so I would add them into the mix as well. Another great one. Yeah. So, I want to just give us a chance to wrap up and tell folks where they can find or follow you.

A lot of the links that we've talked about I'll be dropping in the show notes as well. But just close us out and, and tell people where they can find or follow you. Sarika, I'll start with you again. 

Sarika: You can find me on LinkedIn. I'm actually not on whatever, Twitter X whatever the, I don't even know.

I'm not on any of that. But the, I guess the easiest way to find me is on LinkedIn. Sarika Lamont dm me, message me on a post or whatever. I will respond. I will find you. But that's the easiest way. 

Stacey: And Morgan, where can people find and follow you?

Morgan: Please find me on LinkedIn. That is where I am most active. If you do send a request or anything, please just put where it allows me to accept faster. That's the best thing I can say. 

Stacey: And Tracie. 

Tracie: Linkedin in as well. I was the only Tracie Sponenberg until somebody created a fake one. And so the one with more than three connections is me. The one with the picture is me and my website is TracieSponenberg.com. So you can message me through there. 

Stacey: All right. Thank you so much for joining me and bringing your passion and knowledge and expertise to this topic. And thanks everyone. This was another great Toot or Boot, by the way, I guess we should just close out. Are you, I mean, I feel like the conclusion, I thought it was probably gonna be a boot, but, you know, I just figured I should ask.  

Sarika: I didn't come on Toot or Boot to not get to say that. It's a big old boot for me. 

Morgan: It's gonna be a boot for me as well. 

Tracie: Same 

Stacey: All right, so that makes, four boots. All right. Thanks, everyone.


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Stacey Nordwall

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